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been a profit to the traders in that business of about $76,000,000 in round figures.

The Chairman. If I comprehend your statement correctly the whole population of Hawaii is dependent for subsistence in every way upon the sugar crop?

Mr. Simpson. The sugar crop and the rice crop; they are the two principal crops.

The Chairman. Do they not raise cattle, hogs, and poultry?

Mr. Simpson. No; they are the most improvident people I have ever met with. I have never lived in the South, but in the West Indies and in the several countries where they have cheap labor they have utterly no idea of the value of money. I was standing on the corner talking to a contractor when a native laborer came up and asked for a position. The contractor and I were talking of the improvident character of the native Kanaka. The contractor asked him how much he wished for his work and the fellow said $50 a month. The contractor said, "Jack, I can not pay you that; I will give you $2 a week," and the Kanaka at once said, "When shall I go to work?" That is true, they have no idea or conception of the value of money.

The Chairman. You are now speaking of the very low classes?

Mr. Simpson. Of the natives.

The Chairman. They are not all that way; some of the natives are respectable people, having sense and character.

Mr. Simpson. I do not remember having met more than one or two full-blooded natives who were men of means. I do not wish to question their character, because they are the most honest people that I ever met. Of the so-called 35,000 natives in all the islands, as a matter of fact there are only about 6,000 who are full-blooded natives, the balance having a strain of various kinds of blood. Liliuokalani has a strain of negro blood, and is not a descendant of the ancient chiefs of the islands, as is generally supposed.

The Chairman. You think the mixing of the blood has improved the people?

Mr. Simpson. Yes. There are other articles which can be raised and manufactured with profit in the islands. For instance, common salt can be gathered at a very low price, and if the trade were entered into it could be sold at a very good profit.

The Chairman. There are none of the leading minerals-iron, copper, and lead?

Mr. Simpson. No; the soil is all disintegrated lava, and everything nearly requires irrigation.

Adjourned to meet on notice.

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Washington, D. C., Wednesday, February 7, 1894.

The subcommittee met pursuant to notice.

Present: The chairman (Senator Morgan) and Senators Butler, Sherman, Frye, and Senator Dolph of the full committee.

Absent: Senator Gray.

SWORN STATEMENT OF COMMANDER NICOLL LUDLOW.

The Chairman. At what time have you visited the Hawaiian Islands?

Mr. Ludlow. I have only been there once. I was commander of the Mohican. I arrived there on the 10th of February last and left there on the 1st of May.

The Chairman. What American ship did you find in port?

Mr. Ludlow. I found the Boston there. Subsequently the Alliance came in and reported. The Adams was sent down to take the place of the Mohican, and on her arrival I went north. The Mohican was Admiral Skerrett's flagship; I was his chief of staff during the time I remained there.

The Chairman. On your arrival at Honolulu, what did you find to be the condition of the community there as to quietude and regularity in the conduct of business?

Mr. Ludlow. I had never been there before, and I am not able to make any correct comparison of the affairs then with what they had been. But the people complained of hard times, as they began to do everywhere. Of course, business went on just the same; they did a good deal of talking; apparently they had not much else to do; stand around and talk on the streets and on the piazzas.

The Chairman. Were you around in the city much during the time you were there?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; I was ashore every day. I was brought in contact with everybody in town of every position. As the admiral's chief of staff, I returned a great many calls with him, and made a great many social calls.

The Chairman. Were you at that time aware of the existence of any organization for the purpose of overturning the Provisional Government?

Mr. Ludlow. None whatever, any more than, of course, the adherents of the Queen on one side and of the Provisional Government on the other; there was some talk. There was no conspiracy or fighting, simply talk. I have been around in different parts of the world, and I thought that Honolulu was as quiet a community as you could find; everybody's doors and windows were unlocked. It was so night and day; as quiet a community as exists on the face of the earth.

The Chairman. Would you describe it as a community satisfied with the existing government?

Mr. Ludlow. The Provisional Government?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Ludlow. A great many were dissatisfied with it; thought that it ought not to be there; thought that it was not the legitimate government of the islands.

The Chairman. Were they satisfied with the administration of the affairs of the Government?

Mr. Ludlow. Oh, yes; I heard nothing said about their honesty and proper administration of the affairs of the Government; never heard

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any question raised as to what disposition was made of the money and so on. The men who were in the Provisional Government were recognized as as good men as were in the islands.

The Chairman. Was there an established police force in the islands?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; rather an inefficient police force; never had a call for one while I was there. There were some scraps down in the lower part of the town among the sailors; but I never knew of a blow being struck except by two lawyers, who got into some dispute over some politics, when one struck the other over the face. That thing is all exaggerated about people being in a tremble. Ladies are traveling around in their carriages; and there is more exaggeration about fear there than any place I ever saw.

The Chairman. You saw no evidence at all of intense public anxiety?

Mr. Ludlow. No.

The Chairman. Did you have an opportunity to form an opinion of Mr. Dole and his cabinet in respect to their ability as men to conduct public affairs, and the manner in which they demeaned themselves in their positions?

Mr. Ludlow. I have met them all, and consider them all first-rate men-dignified, quiet, and little talk among them. They were inclined all the time to keep these people from talking. A few days after Mr. Blount arrived, and got the American flag down from off the Government building, he asked me what I thought of the state of public opinion; whether it was any quieter after the flag came down than before. I told him there was a change. I told him that it seemed to put the responsibility where it belonged, and the people seemed to go on about their business; there was not so much talk about it as there had been; they simply accepted the thing, while formerly, while our flag was flying, it made us responsible for everything that took place. We were responsible, in a measure. I was very much surprised to see that flag up there.

The Chairman. Did the Provisional Government make any habitual display of soldiery?

Mr. Ludlow. Oh, no. They were recruiting. I do not think at any time up to the time I left there they had to exceed a hundred men. And there was nobody who could drill them or get them in shape. They had to send to Cleveland, Ohio, to get uniforms.

The Chairman. Were they kept in barracks?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; they had two barracks, one was the Government building, that the Provisional Government occupied, south of it; then there was another old barracks, the artillery barracks, north of the Queen's palace. There may have been other posts. They had a review ground just opposite the Government building. I have seen them drill there.

The Chairman. What is your opinion of the advantage that the Hawaiian group of islands would be to the United States as a military base in time of war?

Mr. Ludlow. As a military base for a country like this it is too far away-2,000 and odd miles. If it were Great Britain, it would be another thing. But with a country like this, with our ideas of a standing army and a navy, an outpost 2,000 miles away would not be the thing.

The Chairman. Would that be the case with respect to Bermuda, if we owned that?

Mr. Ludlow. Bermuda is nearer, a day and a half sail of the port of New York; two days' sail, certainly.

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The Chairman. If you were stationed with a fleet at Honolulu, and the American coast were to be assailed by any great European power with steamships-and they would have to use that class of vessels to make anything like an effective assault-would you not consider that you had an advantage over an advancing or attacking power by having that position?

Mr. Ludlow. No. The Pacific is a very large ocean. You can not keep the track of your enemy on the ocean as you can on land; they could pass you, get in behind you, and you would never know it in the world.

The Chairman. In a naval engagement between the United States and any maritime power, say Great Britain, would it not be their first attempt to take those islands?

Mr. Ludlow. I think there is a treaty between France and Great Britain by which they will never acquire a foot of Hawaiian territory.

The Chairman. That is for civil administration. But in the event of war that would scarcely avail much in a country that wanted to go and establish itself in a military position?

Mr. Ludlow. Great Britain has a better place than that on our frontier.

The Chairman. Where is that?

Mr. Ludlow. Victoria. They have everything they want there.

The Chairman. Victoria, if I understand the geography, is open to a land attack by the United States.

Mr. Ludlow. Yes, but you have to embark your troops; it is an island.

The Chairman. Hardly.

Mr. Ludlow. Vancouvers Island.

The Chairman. You can get plenty of crossings so as to reach Vancouvers Island.

Mr. Ludlow. They keep a pretty good squadron there all the time.

The Chairman. You seem to think, though, in the event of a war with the United States, Great Britain would find it to her advantage, if she saw proper to do so, felt authorized to do so, to seize upon those islands for the purpose of establishing there a base of supplies to recruit her ships, and furnish them with coal and provisions and whatever she needed.

Mr. Ludlow. Undoubtedly they would if they thought it was to their advantage. I never knew Great Britain to hesitate with a question of that kind.

The Chairman. Did you examine Pearl Harbor while you were out there?

Mr. Ludlow. No; nothing more than the surveys. I kept pretty close to the ship. I did not know what would turn up, and if I was to put more men on shore I wanted to be there.

The Chairman. What would be your opinion, with the use of modern guns of high power, as to the ability of any power to control Honolulu by erecting fortifications upon the high lands around the bay and back of the bay to protect that harbor against the invasion of a fleet coming from the open ocean?

Mr. Ludlow. A fleet could shell the place to pieces. You could send a fleet there and could certainly destroy the place.

The Chairman. Could guns be placed around the heights surrounding the bay of Honolulu in such positions as to prevent a fleet coming near enough to Honolulu to shell it and destroy it?

Mr. Ludlow. No. Are you familiar with the harbor?

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The Chairman. I could not say that I am familiar.

Mr. Ludlow. There is a reef that runs around the island, and wherever there is a stream of fresh water coming down from the hill it cuts a channel-the coral will not grow, and that has left that little pocket in there. It is very small.

The Chairman. How many ships of war could harbor there?

Mr. Ludlow. There is not room enough for a ship to swing at anchor.

The Chairman. How far from the line of the bay are the elevations that surround Honolulu?

Mr. Ludlow. The first one is the hill called the Punch Bowl, an extinct volcano, that lies behind the town a mile and a quarter or a mile and a half from the water. It runs down to a flat plain on the edge of the water with this coral reef.

The Chairman. Could not guns be placed on the hills in such position and with such range as would enable those maintaining them there to keep a fleet off?

Mr. Ludlow. If the fleet fired to destroy the town, they would not pay much attention to the batteries up there. And it would not be a difficult matter to hit the town.

The Chairman. I suppose, therefore, you think that men-of-war that might be in the bay for repairs and for provisions or coal would not be made secure by fortifications around the harbor?

Mr. Ludlow. No; not for Honolulu. It would be a very great expense building forts outside. I do not think it could be done; it would not be practicable.

The Chairman. How would it be in Pearl Harbor?

Mr. Ludlow. There you have different conditions. The harbor is very deep inside and it runs a good ways back. I think it must run 5 or 6 miles back in toward the center of the island.

The Chairman. It also has tongues of land running out into it?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes-side bays. But most of it is quite deep, and that, with the range of modern artillery on board ship, make it pretty warm for anybody inside there.

The Chairman. It is what the naval officers would call a well-sheltered place?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes. There is a good deal of work to be done to make it available. My recollection is that something like a quarter to a half mile of excavations would be necessary. Whether that is sand or coral we do not know; there have not been any borings.

The Chairman. Suppose it is coral. Is that difficult to excavate under water?

Mr. Ludlow. No; not nowadays, with modern dredging.

The Chairman. And once excavated, it is easy to keep it open?

Mr. Ludlow. You can keep it open very readily, I think, as soon as they get the mouth of Honolulu Harbor cleared out. This plant belongs to the Government, and they are going to send it down to Pearl Harbor; that was the intention when I left there-to see if they can not deepen the mouth of it. There is one thing to be said about it, it would make another port there for the people of Honolulu and would throw out some of those who are in business, because it would make a better harbor than at Honolulu.

The Chairman. If you were putting the steamer Boston to sea for a voyage into the Pacific Ocean and back around Cape Horn, could you carry coal enough on the Boston to reach Australia and back to the mouth of the Chesapeake?

Mr. Ludlow. No.

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The Chairman. How far would you be able to steam with the coal you could carry on the Boston?

Mr. Ludlow. I never served on the Boston; I could only give you my impression. I do not think her steaming radius is over 3,500 miles. She is one of the old type of ships.

The Chairman. Take the best of modern ships-cruisers which have large capacity for carrying coal, and built purposely for that. What is the steaming radius of those ships?

Mr. Ludlow. Probably the steaming radius of the Columbia is the largest. My impression is that at her most economical speed she has something like 10,000 miles. The Philadelphia has probably 6,000 miles, and the San Francisco has probably 5,000.

The Chairman. That means 5,000 miles out and back?

Mr. Ludlow. Five thousand miles alone.

The Chairman. You could not take either of those ships from the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay around to San Francisco, and when you arrived there have them in fighting condition?

Mr. Ludlow. No; you would have to stop on the way.

The Chairman. Where would you stop?

Mr. Ludlow. In time of peace?

The Chairman. Any time.

Mr. Ludlow. We have any number of stations-a dozen or more coaling commercial stations all through the West Indies; Pernambuco, Brazil; Bahia, Rio Janeiro, Montevideo, and Sandy Point, Straits of Magellan, and Callao; and also Panama and Valparaiso.

The Chairman. At Valparaiso you would find coal?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; and at Callao.

The Chairman. In time of war you could not obtain coal supplies for the naval vessels?

Mr. Ludlow. I believe coal is contraband.

The Chairman. So that in time of war if you wanted to carry coal for the best cruiser you have from Chesapeake Bay to San Francisco, you would not find her in fighting trim when you got to San Francisco?

Mr. Ludlow. No.

The Chairman. Do you not think that under such circumstances it would be of advantage to the United States to have at some point in the Pacific, away from our coast, places where we have the right of control, and places where we could protect our coal supplies?

Mr. Ludlow. I see what you are leading up to. We could not reach Honolulu.

The Chairman. We could reach Samoa, could we not?

Mr. Ludlow. No.

The Chairman. Suppose we were already at Samoa and at Honolulu and had our supplies, and we had to combat with the ships that would come from the Mediterranean and around the Horn for the purpose of attacking the coast of California, which country would have the advantage in a military sense in such an arrangement as that?

Mr. Ludlow. Samoa would have to be counted out. It is over 6,000 miles from there, and we are 2,000 miles from Honolulu.

The Chairman. My question is that we are already in possession of Samoa and Honolulu, and we have sufficient coal there to supply any emergency whatever. Then the question would be, having the right to coal your ships at those points, and protecting them and protecting your depot of supplies, would you have an advantage over a maritime power that had to cross the Atlantic and come around the Horn, or

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had to go through the Mediterranean and the Suez Canal for the purpose of attacking the coast of California?

Mr. Ludlow. There might be a slight advantage. But these other nations have all got nearer stations than that; the French and German as well as the English are in possession.

The Chairman. I suppose our Navy would not be of much use to us if we could not do more than to send our ships with coal enough to go out and fight and get back?

Mr. Ludlow. That is all we can do. We have made no effort to get any coaling station abroad.

The Chairman. As a naval officer, do you think it is a wise policy?

Mr. Ludlow. For this country, yes.

The Chairman. Then we do not need a Navy.

Mr. Ludlow. Oh, yes. You can not defend California with fortifications; you have to defend that place on the sea.

The Chairman. The high sea?

Mr. Ludlow. Outside of gunshot. The class of ships we have been building there are battle ships. We have a few cruisers, but not what we would call fighting ships.

The Chairman. Your idea, then, of the use of a navy would be that the best policy is to have strong ships, well-armed vessels, at the principal ports, where they could come inside, get their coal and provisions, and go outside and fight?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; and not to allow our territory to be hurt. It is not so much offense as defense.

The Chairman. When you get up in the country about Puget Sound where they have large military and naval establishments on Vancouver Island, or Victoria Island, wherever it is, you would find difficulty there unless you stationed your ships inside the sound?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; but we have some 8,000,000 or 9,000,000 men in the United States, and we could have 1,000,000 men over there in no time. They would lose that in thirty days.

The Chairman. That is to say, the land forces would go out?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; we could get them across.

The Chairman. In that case, then, your reliance would be upon the land forces and not upon the navy?

Mr. Ludlow. We would have to be there to see that they got there safely. They have to have vessel transportation.

The Chairman. You seem to think that we have little need of a navy, more modern fighting ships, except of the cruising class.

Mr. Ludlow. Oh, no; battle-ship class.

The Chairman. You prefer those?

Mr. Ludlow. We need them both. If a man has certain work to do he wants proper tools to work with. They work together.

The Chairman. Can you name the ports on the Atlantic where you think these battle ships should be stationed to meet the ships of another nation, say British ships?

Mr. Ludlow. You can count those ports very readily because the depth of water comes in. There are several ports on the coast of Maine. Portland is probably the principal one. There is another at Portsmouth, N. H., where we have a naval station. Then you come down, and, although Boston is not a safe port to get into under all the circumstances with a heavy-draft ship, yet it is of great importance that that port should be defended. Then there is New York, of course, and the mouth of the Delaware.

The Chairman. And Newport?

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Mr. Ludlow. Yes; you have Newport.

The Chairman. Any other places?

Mr. Ludlow. You could mention many harbors up there that have sufficient draft of water for these ships to enter, but other ports could be looked out for with lighter draft ships.

The Chairman. Going on the same principle you would have ships with sufficient power at the entrance of these principal bays on the Atlantic, the Gulf, and Pacific to fight foreign ships as they came in at each of these places?

Mr. Ludlow. They would have to be in a position to be easily gathered together.

The Chairman. Would it not be a little difficult to gather a fleet at particular points-say New York-to defend an attack by English vessels, if you had to bring them from the different ports of the Gulf and South Atlantic and Chesapeake, and so on, in order to meet a military or naval force from Great Britain?

Mr. Ludlow. You have got to move, no matter how the blow is to be struck.

The Chairman. It would be a risky operation?

Mr. Ludlow. Of course there would be some risk.

The Chairman. It would not be so much so if we owned the outside points, say the Bermudas?

Mr. Ludlow. They are near enough as an outpost, and sufficiently near to be supported.

The Chairman. As a naval defense you say that the Atlantic coast would not be so safe against the invasion of a foreign fleet without the possession of these different points that we are speaking of, as if we owned them?

Mr. Ludlow. It would be very much better if we owned them.

Senator Sherman. I would like to have you describe much more fully than has been done here the defense on Vancouver Island. I have been there, and know something about it, but I have not a knowledge of the geographical terms. What kind of fortifications or defenses have been established at Vancouver Island?

Mr. Ludlow. Not very many of them. They have been mounting some high-power modern guns there, I think not to exceed a half dozen, within the last two years. But they have a small naval station on a little harbor that they go into, and it has been principally directed to the defense of that.

Senator Sherman. How far is that from the city of Victoria?

Mr. Ludlow. It is 2 miles, or 2 1/2 miles as I remember it. I was there as a visitor only, a very short time.

Senator Sherman. Have the English any other fortifications or naval stations along the Pacific coast except that one? Is there any up in Canada, farther north?

Mr. Ludlow. No; that is the only one. They have their depot of supplies farther south, down to Coquimbo.

Senator Sherman. How far is Port Townsend from Victoria?

Mr. Ludlow. About 25 miles. You mean the strait where Puget Sound runs in?

Senator Sherman. Land to land-from Port Townsend across to the nearest land; in plain sight of it, is it?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

Senator Sherman. Do you think the channel is 10 miles?

Mr. Ludlow. Do you mean the strait?

Senator Sherman. Yes.

S. Doc. 231, pt 6----73

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Mr. Ludlow. Straight across is from 10 to 15 miles.

Senator Sherman. Your idea is that in case of war our forces could be thrown on the island, and they could practically occupy that island without regard to the Navy?

Mr. Ludlow. They have some ships there, and also naturally they would make the best fight they could. But they realize the fact that war without us would involve all they have to the north of us.

Senator Sherman. Still, there is no other preparation for defense, for any other fort on the island except that?

Mr. Ludlow. I never heard of any and do not believe there is.

Senator Sherman. Is there any difficulty in landing on the inside?

Mr. Ludlow. On the inside; no. There are abundant harbors on the West Pacific coast-some very fine harbors in there that have never been surveyed.

The Chairman. Have you mentioned the depot of supplies at Coquimbo?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; that is in Peru. That is the southern part of their squadron. They have a store ship there, and a direct line of steamers clear up to Callao.

The Chairman. Is it Coquimbo or the Esquimalt?

Mr. Ludlow. Esquimalt is fortified somewhat.

The Chairman. Land fortifications?

Mr. Ludlow. There are some land fortifications there, but not of very great importance. They have a dry dock and can do repairs there.

The Chairman. They have not built ships there yet?

Mr. Ludlow. Oh, no.

The Chairman. They have their coal supplies back on the island?

Mr. Ludlow. Their coal mines are the Nanaimo, which are on the east side of the island of Vancouver, about 60 or 70 miles north of Victoria; and, at Departure Bay, the Wellington mines; 50 miles north is the Comax mine. There is the greatest abundance of coal to the north end of the island; it is only a question of opening it up.

Senator Sherman. Does that coal go to San Francisco?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes. So far as I know, it is the only bituminous coal found on the west coast. The coal is of very excellent quality.

Senator Dolph. Are you acquainted with the coal industry in the State of Washington?

Mr. Ludlow. It is this way. For three years I was the lighthouse inspector at San Francisco, and in that position I had to buy a great deal of coal, and I tried all the coal from all the mines that I could find in the market in San Francisco.

Senator Dolph. How long ago was that?

Mr. Ludlow. That was in 1887, 1888, 1889, and 1890.

Senator Dolph. Are you familiar with the product from the Green River country, the mines opened by the Central and Southern Pacific?

Mr. Ludlow. In Wyoming?

Senator Dolph. No; in Washington.

Mr. Ludlow. The Green River in Washington? No; I have not seen those; I did not know there was any on the market.

Senator Dolph. Do you know the quality of the coal used by the Central and Southern Pacific from mines in Washington east of Tacoma and up in the Cascade Mountains?

Mr. Ludlow. I have not seen them. They get their coal from Coma Vein, Vancouvers Island. They own 30 per cent in those mines, and Dunsmores own 70.

Adjourned to meet on notice.

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Washington, D. C, Thursday, February 8,1894.=

The subcommittee met pursuant to notice.

Present: The chairman (Senator Morgan) and Senators Gray and Frye. Absent: Senators Butler and Sherman.

SWORN STATEMENT OF NIC0LL LUDLOW-Continued.

Senator Gray. You have already been sworn?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

Senator Gray. And you stated in your examination the other day that you went to the Sandwich Islands, in command of the Mohican, with Admiral Skerrett; that you arrived there on the 10th of February, and were there until when?

Mr. Ludlow. The 1st of May.

Senator Gray. You have already said that you were ashore nearly every day; that as Admiral Skerrett's chief of staff it was your duty to make a great many social and official calls; that you came in contact with the people of those islands, and that you were an interested observer of the condition of things obtaining there. That is so, is it not?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

Senator Gray. Did you, with reference to the revolution of January 17, 1893, form any opinion from these sources of observation and information as to whether or not that revolution would have been accomplished when it was accomplished and as it was accomplished if it had not been for the presence on shore of the United States troops??

Senator Frye. Do you consider that a legitimate question?

Senator Gray. I do.

The Chairman. I expect Mr. Ludlow had better answer that question.

Mr. Ludlow. I would like to call attention to a fact in the question.

The Chairman. State your opinion about it.

Mr. Ludlow. The troops were not on shore at the commencement of the revolution; that is, something had been done in the way of the revolution before the men got ashore.

The Chairman. You do not know that of your own knowledge?

Mr. Ludlow. No. The tenor of the Senator's question is what I heard and what I learned and saw.

The Chairman. I do not understand that you are asked for all you heard and learned; but the question is based upon a hypothesis.

Senator Gray. There is no hypothesis about the fact that the revolution, so-called, occurred on the 17th of January, and, when Capt. Ludlow arrived there, it was still a matter of exceeding and absorbing interest and a topic of conversation among those people. The captain was ashore and met all classes of people. I now ask him whether he formed any idea as to whether that revolution would have occurred as it did but for the presence of those United States troops?

The Chairman. State whether you think it would have occurred or not, and then you may give your sources of information.

Senator Gray. State categorically one way or the other.

The Chairman. It is a matter of opinion. You are asked to state whether you formed an opinion. Did you form an opinion about it?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

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The Chairman. Very good. State what it was.

Mr. Ludlow. My opinion is that the revolution would not have occurred in the way it did, and at the time it did, if the people who were the revolutionary party, had not been assured of the protection and assistance of the United States forces there.

The Chairman. Is that opinion of yours based upon what you heard said in and about Honolulu after you arrived there, or is it an independent opinion based upon what you suppose to be the facts as you derived them from the reports and publications and your own reflections?

Mr. Ludlow. It is an opinion that I formed after I had been there perhaps a week or two, sufficiently long to get acquainted with the people. I had never been there before. I could hear them talk, as they were all talking politics. I did not talk with them, but I heard what they said.

The Chairman. Is your opinion based upon what you heard said there?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; they were specially free in giving vent to it on both sides. Afterwards very little was said about it by the Queen's party, or Monarchists, as they are called.

Senator Gray. Did you meet Mr. Blount?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

Senator Gray. Did you ever hear him express an opinion one way or the other about the matter?

Mr. Ludlow. I never did. He was the most remarkably reticent man in that way that I ever encountered.

Senator Gray. Did you meet Minister Stevens?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

Senator Gray. Did you meet the members of the Provisional Government?

Mr. Ludlow. I met them all-all the principal people there; called on them officially and socially.

Senator Gray. On both sides?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; I tried not to have any politics of my own.

Senator Gray. You tried not to talk politics?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

The Chairman. Who among the supporters of the Queen's cause in Honolulu were you in the habit of associating with?

Mr. Ludlow. I can not say associations; simply calling officially and socially.

The Chairman. Well, calling on them?

Mr. Ludlow. I can look at a memorandum book and see the calls I made there. I did not have any intimacy with them at all.

The Chairman. I understand that. I simply want to know the names of the persons who were the supporters of the Queen's cause with whom you had social relations.

Mr. Ludlow. Mr. Robinson, the Queen's chamberlain, and wife, a very charming lady, a daughter of Mr. Cleghorn, and Mr. Cleghorn himself. When I arrived he was the governor of Oahu; afterward his title was abolished. But all these people made very little impression on me. I met Mr. and Mrs. Robinson; Mr. Neuman, who was the lawyer to the Queen, and his family. Those I saw the most of; perhaps called a half dozen times at Mr. Robinson's house and Mr. Neuman's house. I would go down in the evening and sit on the piazza with them. Mr. Neuman was not there most of the time, however. But

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I have a list of the people here, and mixed with them the monarchists, and so on.

The Chairman. Mr. Cleghorn married into the royal family, did he not?

Mr. Ludlow. He married the Princess Likelike.

The Chairman. Mr. Robinson was also connected by marriage with the royal family?

Mr. Ludlow. No; not with the royal family.

The Chairman. With a Hawaiian family?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes. Mr. Cleghorn's first wife was a Hawaiian woman, but not of the royal blood. After her death he married the Princess Likelike, and it is her daughter who is now in England, this princess.

The Chairman. Kaiulani?

Mr. Ludlow. Kaiulani, who comes after Liliuokalani.

Senator Gray. This is the book that you kept referring to memorandum book produced by Mr. Ludlow?

Mr. Ludlow.That is the book I kept. It is my duty to keep a memorandum of them.

Senator Gray. It is a pretty long list?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

Senator Gray. It embraces members of the Provisional Government, I suppose?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; everyone. Castle is here, and the Macfarlanes. They, the Macfarlanes, are all monarchists. The fact is, the monarchists showed more taste in their intercourse with me and the other officers than the annexationists did, because the annexationists would insist on talking politics, especially the ladies. They, the monarchists, considered us as foreigners, treated us as foreigners. The other side did not treat us as foreigners, all the officials, judges-Mr. Jones and Mr. Smith----

Senator Gray. Did you visit Mr. Stevens's house regularly?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; called there at once on our arrival.

Senator Gray. When you arrived there on the 10th of February, the flag had been raised on the Government building, had it not?

Mr. Ludlow. We found the flag flying when we came in.

Senator Gray. After you had been there some time, as an officer of the Navy did you form any opinion as to the necessity or propriety of that flag being there. I suppose as such officer you were bound to consider matters of international propriety?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

Senator Gray. What opinion did you form?

Mr. Ludlow. That the flag should never have been hoisted there; there was no authority for it.

Senator Gray. What did you think as to the propriety, if you formed an opinion in respect to that, of Mr. Blount's requesting Admiral Skerrett to have the flag hauled down?

Mr. Ludlow. I think it was a perfectly proper course to take; in fact, the only course to take.

The Chairman. Would you think that the hoisting of a flag on the invitation of a government for the protection of the peace of the country and its tranquillity was an act not to be performed by a naval officer in a foreign port?

Mr. Ludlow. There is no authority for that. We are authorized to defend American lives and property; we are intrenching on the prerogatives of Congress when we do that.

The Chairman. You can go ashore with your troops?

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Mr. Ludlow. Yes; when called upon.

The Chairman. Very good. When you go ashore do you take your flag?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

The Chairman. For what purpose?

Mr. Ludlow. As an insignia of who we are.

The Chairman. As an emblem of authority?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes.

The Chairman. Is there any difference between holding it on a pole in your hand, or hoisting it at a post?

Mr. Ludlow. Yes; there is a difference.

The Chairman. What is the difference?

Mr. Ludlow. The difference in this case is that there was no post established where that flag was.

The Chairman. Where was it?

Mr. Ludlow. Over the Government building.

The Chairman. But the Hawaiian flag was with our flag?

Mr. Ludlow. No; the American flag was not hoisted until the Hawaiian flag was hauled down.

The Chairman. In that particular your testimony is different from that of other witnesses who have appeared here.

Mr. Ludlow. There was but one flag flying there. It was visible from the harbor. It was flying from the cupola-the steeple.

The Chairman. Was there a Hawaiian flag displayed about the Government building at the time the United States flag was there?

Mr. Ludlow. I did not see any.

The Chairman. Are you certain it was not so? A number of witnesses have testified it was so.

Mr. Ludlow. Then they had it hidden somewhere. It was not in a prominent place-that is, a prominent place, similar to the flag that is flying over the Senate wing of the Capitol.

The Chairman. Can you tell how many flags are flying on this Capitol now?

Mr. Ludlow. I suppose there are two.

The Chairman. Suppose you were told that there were four, would you not be surprised?

Mr. Ludlow. Two are all that I have noticed.

The Chairman. There are four, and you have noticed only two. When you were there in the Hawaiian Islands did you make the acquaintance, socially, of Mr. Wilson, the commander in chief of the police?

Mr. Ludlow. Mr. Wilson is out of office. I do not think I ever saw him.

The Chairman. You did not have any conversation with him about the state of affairs in Hawaii?

Mr. Ludlow. No. That was all in the hands of the United States diplomatic agents on shore. We had nothing whatever to do with that; we had to mind our own business.

Senator Frye. I desire to call attention to a very important communication from Mr. S.M. Castle, whom we all know as one of the best men in the Hawaiian Islands. It gives a brief history of the French and English attempts to take possession of those islands, and of the English hoisting a flag and its being lowered again. It is a very interesting document, and I think it ought to be incorporated in our record.

The Chairman. That order will be made.

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The document is as follows:

MEMORANDA AND REMINISCENCES OF INCIDENTS IN HAWAIIAN HISTORY, BY S.N. CASTLE.

As some of the incidents which I may mention are entirely personal, and the inquiry will naturally arise as to their credibility, it will not be thought egotistical or indelicate for me to speak first of myself, so that any person reading these memoranda can judge of their credibility. My circumstances have been favorable both for hearing and seeing and for acquiring information generally upon matters spoken of. In July, 1836, I received the appointment of secular or financial agent of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions for these islands. Sailing from Boston December, 1830, and arriving April 9, 1837, I was identified with the mission, whose temporal necessities I came to provide for, of course, and the nature of my work also identified me at once with the business community.

For fourteen years I was devoted solely to the work of my agency. At the end of this time, at the suggestion and by the wish of the American board, Mr. Cooke, my assistant in the agency, and myself established the mercantile house of Castle & Cooke, which has now been in operation for thirty-two years. I continued to act as agent for thirty-two years from the date of my appointment. Thus I have been identified with this business community for forty-six years. I think there are none remaining but myself of those who were prominent in business. One house remains, but with no original partner. I have been honored by my fellow residents with various honorary positions, as president of the Chamber of Commerce, etc., and also in other than business relations in the political, religious, and other organizations. The institutions of the country when I came here were in a formative state, and as I came in a responsible and fiduciary character it was natural that I should be sometimes consulted and my counsel sought in matters in which I was supposed to be more fully informed than those who, from their circumstances, had not had so good opportunities of information as I have enjoyed.

I was invited to honorable positions in the Government service which I declined, but did not hesitate to give my opinion when it was sought upon political, religious, or civil topics, and thus I became acquainted with many things of which I should have known nothing in other circumstances. My position as a privy counselor and noble has added to my opportunities of learning the political status of the country.

In forming my opinion of the purposes of France and Great Britain respecting these islands in the past, I have been influenced by the tendency of events as well as utterances, either oral or written, of both France and Great Britain for the last forty years. They have been particularly active in extending their colonial system among the islands of the Pacific, and their dealings with these islands as well as some utterances, have looked to the same result; while the relations of the United States have seemed to be more those of a guardian for its ward, though not unmingled with interest, for the great body of its commerce has always been American. But, aside from this, citizens of the United States have spent millions of money as well as years of weary labor in Christianizing and civilizing the people; in giving them a written language, and books, and schools, and churches, and laws, as well as a civil polity, in making them what they are; and her military and naval


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