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is by majority vote, and it goes to the next Legislature, and by a two-thirds vote it becomes an amendment to the constitution.

Mr. Jones. Yes. There were one or two amendments to the constitution of 1887 at the last Legislature. That is, the former Legislature voted and it was confirmed by the present Legislature.

The Chairman. But there has been no original vote on an amendment of the constitution or an original amendment by the people?

Mr. Jones. No.

Senator Frye. The present constitution takes from the Queen practically all power, does it not, and vests it in the cabinet?

Mr. Jones. Yes. There is no act of hers that is valid without the signature of one of the ministers. The ministers are directly responsible, and she is not responsible.

Senator Frye. I understand that; we have the constitution. Now, when you went into the Government building to take possession the Queen's ministers disappeared, as I understand?

Mr. Jones. Yes.

Senator Frye. And you immediately took possession of the various offices of the building, the archives, the treasury, and everything?

Mr. Jones. Yes.

The Chairman. Now, when you were at that mass meeting at the armory building, was not information conveyed to that meeting that the Queen was going to postpone that new constitution, and was not the question asked that meeting whether that would do?

Mr. Jones. Yes.

Senator Frye. What was the reply?

Mr. Jones. The unanimous reply was, "No, no." They would not believe in it. Kalakaua tried the same dodge.

Senator Frye. In Mr. Blount's report he speaks of the Queen having six or seven hundred troops and sixteen cannon, etc. Did the Queen have any such people there?

Mr. Jones. No. There were about, as far as we were informed, fifty or sixty men down at the station house, and there were seventy or eighty troops at the barracks.

Senator Frye. What are those Hawaiian troops—the Queen's Guard?

Mr. Jones. Yes; around the palace; do palace duty, do the reviewing on state occasions, and things of that sort.

Senator Frye. That Queen's Guard and the police at the police station made no attempt during all these proceedings against your meeting or toward taking possession of the Government building?

Mr. Jones. No.

Senator Frye. Were your people armed at the public meeting?

Mr. Jones. Many of them may have had pistols on them, but not to my knowledge. I saw no arms.

Senator Frye. Was any attempt made to disperse that meeting?

Mr. Jones. No. The only attempt made was by getting up a counter meeting to draw people away from attending. But the house was packed.

Senator Frye. Now, as to the landing of troops. You were there shortly after the troops were landed? You were in Honolulu?

Mr. Jones. Yes, I was in Honolulu.

Senator Frye. Do you know where the troops were located and why they were located and how ?

Senator Gray. Of your own knowledge.

Mr. Jones. Oh, yes. I know that there was a squad stationed at

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the American minister's, and another one at the American consul's, and the balance of them at Arion Hall.

Senator Frye. And Arion Hall was off to the east or west of the Government building?

Mr. Jones. West of the Government building.

Senator Frye. A street between?

Mr. Jones. Yes.

Senator Frye. Do you know whether or not any attempt was made to obtain other locations?

Mr. Jones. I think there was an attempt made to secure the Music Hall, just in front.

Senator Frye. That failed?

Mr. Jones. That failed.

Senator Gray. Of your personal knowledge?

Mr. Jones. All I know of that is, I have read the reports of it. That is the way I obtained the knowledge.

Senator Frye. You were at the Government building frequently. Did you ever see, during this revolution, any of the American soldiers marching on the streets?

Mr. Jones. No.

The Chairman. Did you, as a member of the new Government, expect to receive any assistance from them?

Mr. Jones. No.

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not your fellows were looking for any help?

Mr. Jones. I never knew that they were.

Senator Frye. As a matter of fact, did they give any assistance to the revolution at all?

Mr. Jones. No.

The Chairman. Let me ask you right there, is it your belief that that revolution would have occurred if the Boston had not arrived in the harbor?

Mr. Jones. I believe it would have gone on just the same if she had been away from the islands altogether.

Senator Gray. Was anything said in your conferences that day or the next in regard to the troops—anything said about that at all in your hearing?

Mr. Jones. No. I was not at any of those meetings until Tuesday.

SWORN STATEMENT OF ZEPHANIAH SWIFT SPALDING.

The Chairman. You are a native of the United States?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; I was born in Ohio.

The Chairman. What is your age!

Mr. Spalding. I am 56—was born September, 1837.

The Chairman. When did you first go to Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. I was sent out to Hawaii in 1867 by Secretary Seward.

The Chairman. As an official of any character?

Mr. Spalding. Yes, I was what was termed secret or confidential agent of the State Department. I was bearer of dispatches to the minister at Washington and under pay from the State Department, from its secret-service fund.

S. Doc. 231, pt 6----38

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The Chairman. Was there any particular emergency of the Government in Hawaii that caused you to be sent there?

Mr. Spalding. It was at that time the treaty of reciprocity was being talked about and advocated, and Secretary Seward wished to have all the information possible upon that subject. My instructions were rather indefinite. I received my instructions from the Secretary himself, and, as he told me, he did not wish to be committed by putting explicit or specific instructions upon paper, but he wished to know what effect the reciprocity treaty would have upon the future relations of the United States and Hawaii.

The Chairman. What was your vocation in life before that?

Mr. Spalding. I had come out of the army but a short time before.

The Chairman. What was your rank in the army?

Mr. Spalding. I commanded the Twenty-seventh Ohio Regiment.

The Chairman. As Colonel?

Mr. Spalding. Lieutenant-colonel. Our Colonel was commanding the Brigade.

The Chairman. What was your age when you went to Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. I went out there in 1867. I was then 30 years old. I was born in 1837.

The Chairman. Were you a married man?

Mr. Spalding. 1 was married out there.

The Chairman. Did you marry a native?

Mr. Spalding. My wife was born in Honolulu, but her father was from Massachusetts and her mother from New York.

Senator Frye. Who was your wife?

Mr. Spalding. The daughter of Capt. James McKee.

The Chairman. A sea captain?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; he was wounded on board ship near Honolulu so severely that he was obliged to give up his vessel. He was unable to leave his bed, and his wife went out from New York City to him. He always lived there after that. He was one of the early sugar-planters there.

The Chairman. Did you continue to reside in Hawaii from the time you went out there as a Government agent?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; I have lived there most of the time since then. I have been a short time in California. I came over to San Francisco in 1875 or 1876. I lived there about a year, until about the time of the reciprocity treaty being passed, when I went back and purchased the land I have now.

The Chairman. Where are you residing at present?

Mr. Spalding. My family is in Paris.

The Chairman. There, educating your children?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Where were you during the month of January last?

Mr. Spalding. I left Honolulu—I think it was on the 4th of January— on the steamer coming to San Francisco—on my return to my family in Europe.

The Chairman. What stay had you made in Honolulu, on the islands, prior to your return to Paris?

Mr. Spalding. I had been there, prior to that, three months. I had been there twice during the year. But I had been there about three months putting some new machinery in my factory.

The Chairman. Refinery?

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Mr. Spalding. No; sugar factory.

The Chairman. Were you a manufacturer of sugar cane into sugar?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. What is the extent of your landed possessions in Honolulu?

Mr. Spalding. I have 27,000 acres there; something like 12,000 in fee simple, and the balance—15,000 acres—under lease.

The Chairman. You are cultivating sugar?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Anything else?

Mr. Spalding. Nothing else of any importance.

The Chairman. You raise provisions, I suppose?

Mr. Spalding. Oh, yes; I have also a large herd of cattle. This plantation was formerly cattle land.

The Chairman. On what island is it?

Mr. Spalding. Kauai.

The Chairman. Is it a fertile island?

Mr. Spalding. It is called the most fertile island of the group.

The Chairman. Do you raise crops there by irrigation?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. So that you have expended a good deal of money there?

Mr. Spalding. I have expended a good deal of money upon the plantation.

The Chairman. About how much have you invested there?

Mr. Spalding. The original investment that I made was only about $60,000 in buying up the land without the cattle, because when I bought it there was hardly a fence on the place.

Senator Gray. When was that?

Mr. Spalding. I think it was about fifteen years ago. I think it was in 1878; whether it was just before or after, I do not remember.

The Chairman. Have you put much machinery upon your plantation?

Mr. Spalding. Yes, I have expended a good deal of money upon the plantation; money that I have made out of the plantation has mostly gone into it.

The Chairman. What have been your expenditures for the machinery?

Mr. Spalding. For the machinery alone?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Spalding. I think I have spent $250,000 or $300,000 for machinery.

The Chairman. Is your machinery very fine?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. I have what is considered among sugar men one of the most perfect sugar factories in the world—that is, for cane sugar.

The Chairman. It is located on this island?

Mr. Spalding. Yes, on the island of Kauai.

The Chairman. What labor do you employ?

Mr. Spalding. Just now we are using Japanese and Chinese labor. We have had all kinds of labor, that is, all kinds we could get, because labor has been the one thing that we have been short of.

The Chairman. How about the native labor; do you employ that also?

Mr. Spalding. We employ that whenever we can get it; but the

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natives are not fond of regular work. I use a good many natives for cattle work.

The Chairman. That is, located on your lands?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; they live on the place.

The Chairman. Talking generally, how are the natives provided with homes; what kind of homes have they?

Mr. Spalding. They are very comfortable; they have their little lands, what we call kuleanas, from which they raise the taro plant.

The Chairman. Patches of ground which you would sell them?

Mr. Spalding. Oh, no; patches of ground they have used for a good many years. To explain that I would have to give you some information of our land laws.

The Chairman. We would like to know how the land became distributed.

Mr. Spalding. In the reign of Kamehameha III—I do not remember exactly what year he came onto the throne, but I think somewhere about 1820—the King changed from the feudal system, if you might so term it, or the system by which he held all the lands in the country, and everybody was subservient to him, to a system by which he gave away the lands of the Kingdom, divesting himself of this right in, I think, three divisions. He gave certain lands to the Crown, to remain Crown lands forever—large tracts of land; he gave what were termed kuleanas—that is, small patches of lands that could be watered, something like a rice patch, sometimes not more than twice the size of this room—lands capable of raising taro, which has been always the food of the people—he gave to the people all these lands, with the proviso that they should make application to the Government, through the proper channel, and receive from the Government what is known as a royal patent, and that is where all the titles to lands in that country come from.

The Chairman. Are these kuleana titles fee simple titles?

Mr. Spalding. They are royal patent titles; they are from the Government.

The Chairman. They are in fee?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. We consider them the best possible title.

The Chairman. No reversions?

Mr. Spalding. No, except mineral rights. But there are no minerals in the country, and never have been.

The Chairman. What is the third class of lands?

Mr. Spalding. The third class of lands the King gave to the Government what are called Government lands.

Senator Gray. Were they distinct from the Crown lands?

Mr. Spalding. They were distinct from the Crown lands. The profits from the Crown lands were to revert to the Crown. For instance, I have what are called ahupuaas or large tracts of land, sometimes running up into the mountains and containing a great number of acres. Some of these ahupuaas belong to the Crown—that is, they were reserved as Crown lands. I pay a rental on these ahupuaas to these Grown commissioners.

The Chairman. Those are what you call the leased lands?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. Also, we have lands that belong to the Government. These are the lands that the King so set apart—lands which belong to the Government, to the Crown, not to one King or another King, but to the Crown in perpetuity; the others to the people by royal patent. Kamehameha III divided up the land in that way.

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The Chairman. When you came to buy up this large estate to which you have the fee simple title, from whom did you buy it?

Mr. Spalding. The fee simple title came from the man who had previously owned it.

The Chairman. Where did he get it?

Mr. Spalding. I do not know where he got it originally, without looking back over the papers to see where these lands came from. The large chiefs took these pieces as the people took the kuleanas.

The Chairman. So that to this land that you have you derived title from the chiefs?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; in the old times. And some of them are Crown lands for which I pay rent.

The Chairman. In the disbursement, were these lands open to native settlers?

Mr. Spalding. Preference was given to natives who were living upon the Kuleanas—there was sometimes 1 acre, sometimes 5, sometimes 10, as the case might be. But the common people generally took the lands that could be watered, for the reason that the big lands running up into the mountains furnished nothing but pasturage; were of no particular use to them.

The Chairman. In order to raise their native food, taro, the natives were obliged to have water?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; the lands that could be watered.

The Chairman. The taro grows in water?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. It belongs to the Caladium family and is known as the Arum Esculentum.

The Chairman. Are the natives, employed by you when not engaged in their own industries?

Mr. Spalding. A great many of them are when they want work. Some of them raise taro on my laud. To some of them I lease land. Some of them work entirely in handling cattle. Some natives I have as overseers.

Senator Gray. This plant that you call taro. What is its character?

Mr. Spalding. It is a bulbous root that grows in the moist ground. Taro grows in a certain amount of water, as rice does.

Senator Gray. Is it anything like the potato?

Mr. Spalding. Something like the potato. It is starchy in its nature, like the potato; but before it is cooked it has a very strong, pungent flavor and burns the mouth; it must be cooked to eat it.

Senator Gray. Something like the turnip?

Mr. Spalding. Like the Indian turnip when it is raw. But taro after baking, or boiling, becomes like a potato, and can be mashed up.

Senator Gray. That is the staple food of the islands?

Mr. Spalding. That is the staple. When it is mashed it becomes poi. After it has been broken up, it becomes like hasty pudding. When they mix it with water and allowed to stand it becomes sour, and they prefer it as it becomes more and more acid.

Senator Gray. Do the natives make a liquor of it?

Mr. Spalding. No. From the ti plant they make liquor.

Senator Gray. You have eaten taro?

Mr. Spalding. Oh, yes.

The Chairman. Is it palatable?

Mr. Spalding. Very nutritious and pleasant to the taste, especially

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after you become accustomed to the poi. The natives eat it with the finger, when it is thick. When thick they eat it with one finger, a little thinner with two, and a little thinner with three or four. They dip it up with their fingers, roll it around and put it in their mouths.

The Chairman. Is this a food common to all those countries?

Mr. Spalding. Common to the Pacific islands.

The Chairman. How many natives have you upon your estate?

Mr. Spalding. We have not a great many natives on Kauai. Within the limits of my lands I do not think there are over 500.

The Chairman. Do you find the natives tractable, people easy to be controlled?

Mr. Spalding. Oh, yes. I have never found the natives to be anything else. They are a good-natured people, not prone to quarrelling or fighting.

The Chairman. How are they about public affairs; do they feel much interest in political affairs?

Mr. Spalding. They are very fond of lawsuits; they are very fond of arguing, very fond of making speeches. I have known a native to talk for two or three hours. Of course, he would repeat himself a good many times. But they are very fond of everything of that kind. We have a great many native lawyers. They have a great idea of making speeches.

The Chairman. Of course, then, in their speeches they are fond of talking about politics?

Mr. Spalding. Oh, yes; they talk about politics and most anything else. They ring in anything in a political speech.

The Chairman. Do they seem to take any real, deep or sincere concern in public affairs, management of the Government?

Mr. Spalding. No, not as a rule.

The Chairman. What do you say of them as a governing race?

Mr. Spalding. I have always found them very easily governed.

The Chairman. No, not to be governed, but as governing.

Mr. Spalding. They acquire an education up to a certain point very readily, and all kinds of education, musical and others; but that point is not very high up in the scale. They are apt to be very fanciful in their ideas, rather than practical. We have never found any of them to be practical enough to transact business of any importance.

The Chairman. Do you know any native Hawaiians who could take your sugar estate, for instance, and make a success of it?

Mr. Spalding. I do not think there was ever a native on the islands who could run it for five years without ruining it. I was in partnership with Kamehameha V when he was King, and got to know him pretty well. I started a sugar plantation on the island of Maui at his request. He owned an interest in the plantation. I agreed to take the management of it on certain terms. In the management of the plantation I came in contact with the governor of Maui, who was an old-fashioned native and quite smart for his times. I found there was so little business about him that we were constantly having trouble.

Senator Gray. You mean the governor and you?

Mr. Spalding. Yes, about the King's lands. His idea was that the mill should furnish money for the planting of the cane, and the King to get his rent whether the proceeds came to the amount advanced or not. That is a matter we could not agree upon, and I sold out my interest.

The Chairman. I would like to ask you about the healthfulness of the Hawaiian Islands.

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Mr. Spalding. I think a large part of the race is diseased.

The Chairman. I am speaking of the healthfulness of the climate.

Mr. Spalding. The climate is a very salubrious one, and particularly good for young people and very old people. It is not a good climate for an active man, because it is too even and equable to be, perhaps, healthful for a vigorous man.

Senator Gray. Enervating?

Mr. Spalding. Enervating, yes.

The Chairman. You spoke of the whole population in a certain sense being diseased. That is not the result of any climatic condition?

Mr. Spalding. No. If I had the time and you had the leisure, I could tell you from my own experience with the natives how easy it was for them to drift into corrupt ways of life and government. They are naturally indolent and careless about health or property. Kalakaua, the last king, was a good-natured, indolent sort of man. He was a man of very fair education; but he was, of course, a thorough native, and his idea of morality was not very great. I had occasion to know him pretty well, because he owned a quarter interest in my plantation at one time. He undertook to furnish the native labor to do the work, which would have been a valuable consideration for the plantation. If that had been carried out it would have been quite consistent with business views to have furnished him the means of paying the assessments on the interest which he held. But within a very few months after he attempted to do this, I found it was utterly useless to depend on him. He had engaged people to do work in the fields. They would start out to do the work, then would stop and have a little talk over it, and then go fishing instead of going to work. The result was the first crop was less than a ton of sugar to the acre on land that I have harvested since 4 to 5 tons to the acre, by good cultivation. I was obliged to buy Kalakaua out. I held his notes, and the ex-Queen, his sister, who had some property, was the indorser on the notes, but I gave his notes back to him and took his interest, simply because there was no use in my carrying him, finding that he could not get the labor to help me carry on the plantation.

The Chairman. He was not a man of business capacity?

Mr. Spalding. No, none of them are. They attempt to do some things. The King used to go down to the plantation himself and ride around; but it was simply the lack of capacity on the part of the native to carry out any important business. That is why the whole country, so far as it is worth anything, has drifted into the hands of others.

The Chairman. You knew Kalakaua, I suppose, and his personal and political history at the time he was King?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And up to the revolution of 1887?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. When that revolution was inaugurated, was it done by any particular organization for the purpose of annexing the islands to the United States?

Mr. Spalding. There was no particular talk of annexation at that time. But there was an organization gotten up for the purpose of forcing the King into a better form of government. He had rather undertaken to do the whole business himself—in this way: he had a minister of foreign affairs who was also ex-officio minister of the interior, ex-officio minister of finance, and ex-officio attorney-general.

The Chairman. Who was that?

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Mr. Spalding. Gibson. When one of his cabinet associates would resign Gibson would take the office himself, and he was the moving spirit of the whole Government. He had gotten into the good graces of Kalakaua, so that he was the governing spirit of the country, and he was treating the King with a good deal of deference until he had obtained this power. We put up with it so long as it was possible to put up with a thing of that kind, and finally this organization was formed for the purpose of changing this business.

The Chairman. What was that organization called?

Mr. Spalding. I do not know that you can say there was any particular name; it was a League.

The Chairman. Was it a secret or public organization?

Mr Spalding. It was a secret organization.

The Chairman. Were you a member of it?

Mr. Spalding. I was not a known member of it, because, as I told them at the time, if Mr. Gibson knew that I was one of the advisors he might take some pains to thwart it. But I furnished my share of the sinews of war.

The Chairman. Money?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. After the organization was formed, did you proceed to arm the members of it?

Mr. Spalding. These arms were all in the hands of private individuals. We had these arms simply in the event of desiring to use them. We then had a meeting of the citizens of Honolulu.

The Chairman. Outside of the league?

Mr. Spalding. The league was there, but this was a public meeting where they could come.

The Chairman. What was the number of that league at the time of the revolution of 1887?

Mr. Spalding. I could not tell you how many men.

The Chairman. Give us an idea, whether there were hundreds or thousands.

Mr. Spalding. Oh, no; it was not anything more than perhaps about a hundred.

The Chairman. That is, a hundred people of the Hawaiian islands were banded together in a secret organization for the purpose of compelling----

Mr. Spalding. Reform in the Government. Let me express one thing before going any further. Up to the time of the revolution of 1887 there was what was called the "House of Nobles," not elective— the nobles were appointed for life by the King, so that the King had actually control of the Government.

The Chairman. That was one of the points of your reform?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. And we had no way of obtaining a majority vote in that house as against the King on account of his being able to put these nobles in.

The Chairman. They were his creatures?

Mr. Spalding. They were his creatures.

The Chairman. And you had to go to work and create a revolution in the Government to reform the Government?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. To take the nobles out of the King's hands and have them voted for by the people?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

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The Chairman. The people who were to vote for the nobles were not the general masses of the voters?

Mr. Spalding. The people who voted for the nobles must have separate qualifications, property qualifications, separate from the qualifications to vote for the representatives. Both houses sat together.

The Chairman. But the suffrage was very much larger in respect to election of members of the house than in respect to the election of the nobles?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. They were organized by districts, I suppose?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. When you got to the point of this secret organization, got to the point of a determination to work this revolution in the Government, a meeting of the citizens was held in Honolulu?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Was that a public meeting?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Open meeting?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. What was the general character of the declaration made by that meeting?

Mr. Spalding. Simply that there must be a change in the administration of the Government.

The Chairman. That the people would no longer submit to the then workings of the Government?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. It was not then, as I understand, a project to destroy the monarchy?

Mr. Spalding. No.

The Chairman. Nor to dethrone the King?

Mr. Spalding. No.

The Chairman. But to compel him to grant restrictions on his power in favor of the people?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. We could have made a republic at that time— deposed him.

The Chairman. Was there anything of the kind in that movement —a desire to make a republic of Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. No. There might have been in a few individuals.

The Chairman. I am speaking of the purpose of that movement.

Mr. Spalding. It was that the constitution should be so amended that the rights of property and the rights of the white people should be more respected and observed.

The Chairman. Was there any purpose of annexing the islands to the United States at that time?

Mr. Spalding. No. One of the principal leaders was an Englishman who was opposed to annexation—even to reciprocity—with the United States.

The Chairman. So that you intended to let the monarchy remain, and the King on his throne?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And the constitution to remain intact, except as you had amended it, with the grants in it?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Therefore the citizens met in this secret society to make demands on the King?

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Mr. Spalding. Yes. These men had armed themselves for mutual protection in the event of its becoming necessary.

The Chairman. The result was that the King granted the constitution of 1887?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And it was proclaimed?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Then the King went on to act under that constitution.

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Of course, under very restricted power?

Mr. Spalding. The main improvement was this. Under the constitution of 1887 the House of Nobles was abolished and made elective and the King's ministers were made responsible for the Government.

Senator Frye. They were the Government?

Mr. Spalding. They were the Government—the King could do no act without the ministry.

The Chairman. No legislative act?

Mr. Spalding. No legislative act.

The Chairman. Could not pass any law?

Mr. Spalding. No. Of course it reduced him, you can see, to a figurehead. The only thing left to him, and which afterward proved a very great trouble, was the veto.

The Chairman. The veto was left to the monarch. Then he had the right to appoint his ministers?

Mr. Spalding. No. He could not appoint his ministers without the consent of the Legislature, of these two Houses. That was the very thing. And he could not discharge his ministry. He had been in the habit of discharging his cabinet one day and appointing a new one the next. Under the new constitution he could discharge his cabinet by the passage through the Legislature of a vote of want of confidence; and he could not appoint a Cabinet without the consent of the Legislature— the cabinet must be approved by the Legislature. It made quite a difference in that way.

The Chairman. You are familiar with the Hawaiian legislation and Hawaiian affairs up to the time you made your last visit in January, 1893?

Mr. Spalding. In a general way; not very minutely.

The Chairman. You knew the state of public opinion?

Mr. Spalding. I knew how there came to be "two Richmonds in the field." At the time of the constitution of 1887, the first election held under that constitution was without a dissenting vote, almost, and every single member—I do not know of any exceptions—was elected as a candidate or as a member of what was called the reform party. And even the members, natives and others, who had been in the previous legislatures, as you might say creatures of the King to carry out his wishes, voted the reform ticket. I remember that in my district there was not a dissenting voice—every vote was cast in the one line. After a few years this party, known as the reform party, became partially broken up, and some of the members of the reform party who wanted to get into office themselves, started another party, which they called the national reform party. That was the beginning of what has since resolved itself into the two parties; one in favor of the Crown or Sovereign, the other in favor of the people.

The Chairman. Which is the reform party?

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Mr. Spalding. That which is represented by the Provisional Government is the reform party; the national reform party is represented by the royalists. We had two or three other names to these parties, but these two parties were the original ones.

The Chairman. When did you last leave Hawaii—before the month of January, 1893?

Mr. Spalding. I had been there the previous June or July, I think.

The Chairman. You left in July?

Mr. Spalding. I think so.

The Chairman. Had you made a considerable stay during that visit to Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. I had been there several months.

The Chairman. Looking after your personal interests?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. After you left there did you know of any concert of action, conspiracy, open or secret society, organized or projected for changing the Government from a monarchy to any other form of government?

Mr. Spalding. No.

The Chairman. Or of dethroning the Queen?

Mr. Spalding. No, I did not.

The Chairman. Or of forcing her to accept a particular cabinet?

Mr. Spalding. No.

The Chairman. Did you know of any political movement that might be called in any sense a movement in antagonism to the Government of Hawaii at that time—I mean when you were there?

Mr. Spalding. I did not know of any, and I do not think there was any.

The Chairman. Had you reasons for knowing there was any?

Mr. Spalding. I have not seen the signs of any.

The Chairman. Have you made inquiry?

Mr. Spalding. I have inquired of some of my friends in Honolulu. I was on my plantation most of the time. Of course, I heard of the rumor that word had been received from Washington that annexation might possibly be agreed to or brought about, and I did not believe that any such intelligence had come from Washington, because I had kept a pretty good run of matters here for many years. I differed with my friends there in that respect. Of course, a good many private opinions were to the effect that it would be a very easy matter to annex the country to the United States. I always maintained the ground that it would be a very easy matter to annex the country to the United States so soon as the United States would give us any reason for believing that it would be agreeable on this side. I knew it would not take very much to bring it about if that were so, and I so stated, even last January, before this affair tood place. I was told by one of the present royalists there that $100,000 would be sufficient to upset the monarchy in case annexation could be brought about.

The Chairman. Have you any objection to giving the name?

Mr. Spalding. No; that was a Frenchman, Dr. Trouseau. That was his opinion, and I thought the money could be raised; I would be willing to give a reasonable sum myself toward it. But I would not waste any money, and I have not wasted any money on this proposition because I never saw the time that the United States had given us a sufficient indication that the islands would be accepted. I had never seen any.

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The Chairman. How long before this emeute was it that you were last in Honolulu?

Mr. Spalding. Just a few days before. I was crossing the Atlantic when the vessel arrived at San Francisco with the news.

The Chairman. Then you went on to Paris with your family?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. I got the news at Queenstown.

The Chairman. I want particularly the period when you were in Honolulu.

Mr. Spalding. January, 1893.

Senator Gray. And you left there the 4th of that month?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. I perhaps had not left New York when this thing took place.

The Chairman. When you left Honolulu in January, 1893, had you any information of a movement that was on foot to annex Hawaii to the United States?

Mr. Spalding. No; I had information to the contrary. If there was anything going on I was likely to be informed by men who would certainly know about it, men who were afterward engaged in this uprising. I was informed by those men that there was no chance of anything of that kind; that there would be no trouble, so far as they were aware; that there was no organization, and would be no trouble unless something occurred which they did not know about.

Senator Frye. Then Mr. Stevens must have left on that Boston trip about the time you left?

Mr. Spalding. I do not know whether he was in Honolulu when I left. I think the Boston was there. I think Mr. Stevens left about the time I did—just about the time I did.

The Chairman. From what you stated here, the drift of your inquiry had reference to your personal affairs, as to whether the condition of the country was likely to be firm and prosperous.

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. You were not inquiring because of any expectation that there would be an uprising or a revolution?

Mr. Spalding. No. It was only in regard to the general matter, to the conduct of the future Government.

The Chairman. You, as a property holder, were inquiring for the purpose of protecting your interests?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And you made this inquiry of the persons who were afterwards engaged in this emeute, who informed you that nothing of the kind was contemplated?

Mr. Spalding. Nothing of the kind contemplated at that time.

Senator Gray. Will you state of whom you made the inquiries?

Mr. Spalding. One of the gentlemen is Mr. Wilder, who is now one of the council and one of the commissioners to come on here. Mr. Wilder and I had agreed in politics. He knew that I was an annexationist of long standing, and he was a pretty good American himself. We talked the matter over, and he assured me that there was nothing in these rumors of which I had heard incidentally; that there was no news received from Washington that was at all indicative of anything of that kind. I certainly would not have left there if I had thought there would be any change in the Government that way. I should have remained there and been in the thick of it, because I should have considered that my property interests there demanded it.

The Chairman. Was the rule of Liliuokalani up to the time you left there agreeable to the better part of the population?

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Mr. Spalding. Her rule was not exactly agreeable to herself or anybody else because it was a forced rule; she was forced into everything she did. And her last ministry was obliged to force her to every act they accomplished.

The Chairman. The people were conscious of her reluctance?

Mr. Spalding. The people were conscious of that, because there was this fight, if you might term it so, between these two parties. But we supposed we had sufficient control in the majority which we possessed in the Legislature and in the cabinet. She had a cabinet before that which was quite obnoxious to the people, and that had been ousted.

The Chairman. By a vote of want of confidence?

Mr. Spalding. Vote of want of confidence, and that she must appoint a cabinet agreeable to the Legislature. What we termed the reform party had a majority; that is, it was a coalition of the reform party and the best men of this national reform party—it was the best men of all parties who had joined in this coalition to have a good cabinet appointed, and we deemed we had. When I left there in January things were in better shape than ever before. When I left there appeared to be less liability of any trouble than there had been for a year, because we had the best cabinet that we had had for a long time. That is this Jones-Wilcox cabinet; they were all respectable men— men of position and men whom we could depend on—very safe hands so long as that cabinet remained in possession. But, to the surprise of everybody, the Queen managed to get a majority in the Legislature a very few days after I left, and that cabinet was ousted.

The Chairman. Was that done by election or manipulation?

Mr. Spalding. It was done by manipulation.

The Chairman. Do you recollect when you left Honolulu, in January, 1893, these bills, the opium bill and the lottery bill, were pending before the Legislature?

Mr. Spalding. We supposed at that time they were killed; because it was understood, of course, that so long as the Wilcox-Jones ministry remained in those bills could not be passed.

The Chairman. No member of that ministry could be gotten to sign.

Mr. Spalding. No. And with the majority we had in the Legislature— the cabinet ministers had a vote in the Legislature—the opium and lottery bills could not pass. Of course, we supposed that everything was secure for two years, as the Legislature would be prorogued and this cabinet would hold over for two years, and the Queen could not put them out after the Legislature was prorogued. Therefore, she made the final effort of obtaining a majority in the Legislature just after I left there in January, and after she got that majority she had everything in her own hands.

The Chairman. When did you return to Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. Do you mean when I last returned?

The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Spalding. In October, 1893.

The Chairman. You were not present, then, during any part of this emeute?

Mr. Spalding. No, I was not there at all between January and October.

The Chairman. When you got back to Hawaii, what impression did you find amongst the people there in respect to the means by which Lilioukalani had changed the Legislature so as to get the new

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cabinet, so as to get authority, power, to enact the opium bill and the lottery bill—what was the impression?

Mr. Spalding. The impression as to the means that she used?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Spalding. I do not know that I got any very definite idea, except what seemed the result, perhaps, of my own previous knowledge. For instance, on the island of Kauai we elected one of the nobles at the previous election; elected him on the reform ticket. We considered him just as much a member of that Reform party as Mr. Jones, Mr. Wilcox, or anybody else. He was an ignorant old fellow, but goodnatured. As there did not seem to be anybody on the island willing to spend the time to attend the sessions of the Legislature, and as this old fellow was willing to go—of course he had to pay his own expenses— he was nominated by this Reform party. He was considered just as good a man, so far as his principles were concerned, as good a Reformist as anyone else. But it was his vote that had been obtained in some way or other which gave the Queen the balance of power—his and that of the son-in-law of this Judge Weidemann. Of course, at the time I left there was no doubt of this noble from Kauai continuing to vote, as he had done before, with the Reform party. But he was a great friend of Paul Neumann who came on here, you remember, in the interest of the Queen. He probably gained this vote for the Queen. Paul Neumann had been in the previous cabinet—had been elected to the Legislature as a noble from Honolulu; only a few months before that he had been elected by a sort of joint vote. The cabinet went out for want of confidence, and he was out of it entirely. This man from Kauai was a sugar planter. We always supposed that he would vote in the same lines that he had always expressed his opinions. We knew his opinions, and he was nominated by this Reform party, nominated against a man who was running as an Independent, but more in favor of the Queen's party than the Reform party. But it was losing this vote that upset the whole thing. I had no reason to think it would happen at the time I left Honolulu.

The Chairman. What is the opinion, the belief, of the men engaged there in promoting the interests of what you call the reform party as to these men having been corruptly influenced to go into the meshes of the Queen and vote for the opium bill and the lottery bill? What did you find to be the state of opinion in Hawaii about that when you returned?

Mr. Spalding. I found this—that the men who voted for that opium bill and lottery bill were the men who were known and acknowledged there as being the most corrupt, men of the least reputation. Some of the natives, for instance, with no shadow of reputation, belong to that class or party.

The Chairman. The class that voted for these bills?

Mr. Spalding. That voted for these bills.

The Chairman. I am speaking of the change.

Mr. Spalding. You mean the effect, the change by which the votes from the reform party were carried over?

The Chairman. What is the opinion as to the means employed to procure this change?

Mr. Spalding. Some claim that money was used and others bribery of one kind and another. But I do not think there was any more bribery used than is general in such cases. I think this man from Kauai was influenced more by Paul Neumann simply talking to him.

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They are both Germans, and he has a great idea of Paul Neumann's greatness. My own idea would be that he was more influenced by Neumann than any other influence.

The Chairman. That is your idea?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. What is the prevailing idea or opinion on that sub ject? Mr. Spalding. A great many think there was bribery used.

Senator Gray. And others agree with the opinion you express?

Mr. Spalding. I suppose so. But, of course, I could not say much of my own knowledge how the people did regard it. I do not think I paid much attention to it. I know that I heard with a great deal of astonishment of this old fellow from Kauai and his false position toward the reform party.

Senator Gray. Was he a native?

Mr. Spalding. No, a German. He married a native, had a native wife.

The Chairman. What is the present state of things in the Hawaiian Islands?

Mr. Spalding. It is quite depressed. Of course, certain lines of business that have to be carried on, cultivation of the cane, manufacture of the sugar, and moving of the sugar are going on; but what you call mercantile business, selling supplies and other things, is very much depressed, because of the low price of sugar.

The Chairman. Is it want of confidence in the Government that produces this depression?

Mr. Spalding. No.

The Chairman. Do the people of Hawaii, the native Kanakas, seem to resent this change in the Government?

Mr. Spalding. I have never seen anything that indicated a marked sentiment.

The Chairman. You were on your estate there, were you?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Saw the people who were there?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Did they exhibit any dissatisfaction at the existing state of affairs?

Mr. Spalding. No. They have talked among themselves, not with me, but I have heard of their talking about their having something to say in the Government; that is, having a vote, the franchise the same as they had been in the habit of having it. But at the same time I do not think they care particularly about that. I do not think they are much interested in that. If you will allow me to say it—without blowing my own trumpet;—when it was asked of the natives in my neighborhood what they thought of the annexation question, they said they wanted first to know what Spalding thought about it; if he did not want to have it, they did not. It shows that I am a sort of adviser to them. They come to me with all their troubles.

The Chairman. Have you always occupied that position toward them?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Do you enjoy the confidence of the natives?

Mr. Spalding. Yes, the best of them, because they always know that they can come to me, and my manager when I am away, and have any benefits which are necessary, any assistance which is necessary. For

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instance, when they want a church, I give them a piece of land to put it on, and give them the use of my carpenters in building it, and help them secure the money to build it with—help them secure their churches and schools.

The Chairman. Are the natives interested in such matters as those?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; they are all, as a rule, interested in their little churches and in their schools. We have two quite good-sized schoolhouses, which makes quite a large school, on my own plantation, a short distance from the mill. I gave the land to them and assisted them in putting up their building. The school may be said to be right under my eye. My financial clerk is the agent of the Government school board, or board of education, in all its financial transactions.

The Chairman. Do the natives participate in all these public institutions?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Freely and with spirit?

Mr. Spalding. They attend these schools. Education is compulsory up to a certain age.

The Chairman. Are the people in harmony with that sentiment of progress, improvement, and enlightenment?

Mr. Spalding. As far as you could expect them to be.

The Chairman. Is there any antagonism to it?

Mr. Spalding. I think not. In some cases, where the natives are by themselves, away from the plantations, they may have been imbued with the idea that the foreigners are aggressive people, trying to get possession of their property, and it is necessary to fight them off; and in political campaigns stories have been told to them by officeseekers that would, perhaps, in some instances, estrange them from foreigners with whom they would otherwise have been on good terms.

The Chairman. So that you would say that amongst the native Kanaka population the general drift of feeling or opinion would be in favor of those institutions first established by the missionaries?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. And the natives have looked more upon the United States as the father of their Government. They always speak of the American war ships as "our war ships," in contradistinction from the British war ships; and the 4th of July, has been the gala day of the country. We have the Kamehameha day. The Kamehameha day is the first; that is the 11th of June; but they have always celebrated the 4th day of July as the gala day of the country.

The Chairman. Kamehameha I was a chief?

Mr. Spalding. He was a high chief. He was not Royal blood but he was a nephew of one of the Kings of Hawaii.

The Chairman. At the time he came to the front there were kings over these islands?

Mr. Spalding. A half dozen. There were three kings on Hawaii alone.

The Chairman. He established himself by uniting all these kingdoms into his empire?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; by force.

The Chairman. And there is where the Kamehameha family took its origin as a royal dynasty?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. One part of the island of Hawaii was left by the king of that section—there were three kings there—to Kamehameha and to the son of the old King when he, the old King, died. Afterward

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the son, through the influence of some of his chiefs, attempted to wrest from Kamehameha his share of this part of the Kingdom. He was defeated, killed, slain in battle. Then Kamehameha went to work and conquered the balance of Hawaii and the other islands.

The Chairman. I suppose you have examined Jarvis History of Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. In old times.

The Chairman. Is that considered authentic—a correct history?

Mr. Spalding. I think so. One of the best histories is a short one by Prof. Alexander.

The Chairman. But Jarvis' History is a standard work?

Mr. Spalding. It has always been so regarded on historical questions.

The Chairman. What are your annual taxes to the Hawaiian Government?

Mr. Spalding. I pay on my plantation—of course I practically own the whole plantation; I have it in the form of a stock company, but I own 4,915 shares out of 5,000, so that my taxes amount to $8,000 or $9,000 a year.

The Chairman. What are your estates there valued at; what do you think a reasonable value on your estate?

Mr. Spalding. My estate?

The Chairman. The estate which you control by this arrangement of which you have been speaking.

Mr. Spalding. I should consider it worth from a million of dollars upwards. It depends somewhat upon the outlook.

The Chairman. The taxes you speak of paying, $8,000 or $9,000 a year, I suppose are direct taxes to the Government?

Mr. Spalding. Direct taxes; yes.

The Chairman. In addition to them you pay the tariff tax?

Mr. Spalding. Oh, certainly.

The Chairman. So that your entire taxation during the year would amount to considerably more than that?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; $10,000 or $12,000 a year.

The Chairman. Let me ask you what is your estimate—it is not expected to be accurate—of the present value of the investments made by American citizens in the Hawaiian Islands?

Mr. Spalding. If the times were good I should say those investments were $50,000,000; being very bad the value is not over $30,000,000; but anywhere from $30,000,000 to $50,000,000.

The Chairman. Thirty million dollars would be the minimum?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Are you a citizen of Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. I voted in 1887, but I have not taken the oath of allegiance in Hawaii. I have not lost my citizenship in the United States.

The Chairman. That is a process of naturalization there, to take the oath of allegiance?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; I do not know how the United States would regard it. Previous to 1887 you could not vote without having taken the oath of allegiance. That was changed under the laws of 1887 so that you could register, and you would simply have to take the oath to support the constitution, but not become a citizen.

The Chairman. Somewhat similar to the privilege granted by some of the States with regard to signifying an intention?

S. Doc. 231, pt 6----39

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Senator Frye. In the estimate of the property held by the Americans at $50,000,000, what would be your estimate of the property held by others, in good times?

Mr. Spalding. You want to divide it up among the Americans, English people, etc.

Senator Frye. What is the proportion held by the natives and what is the proportion held by the whites of the islands?

The Chairman. Of all nationalities?

Mr. Spalding. I should say at least nine-tenths.

Senator Frye. And of that, what proportion is held by the Americans?

Mr. Spalding. Probably of all the whites over three-fourths by Americans; that is, what we call Americans, people born there of American parentage.

The Chairman. So that the representation in the National Legislature of Hawaii, so far as the natives are concerned, is a very small proportion of the real wealth of the country?

Mr. Spalding. A very small proportion. No natives have property. This man Parker, who was in the last cabinet of the Queen, and who is the Queen's mainstay now, was the nephew of a half white, who died some time ago, leaving him a large property. But he squandered it all; he is bankrupt; and some say he has spent $300,000—I suppose he has spent $150,000—in the last six or eight years.

Senator Frye. Is he a dissipated man?

Mr. Spalding. He is not a common drunkard, by any means, but a careless man, spendthrift.

Senator Gray. Who is that?

Mr. Spalding. Samuel Parker, the minister of foreign affairs under Liliuokalani.

The Chairman. In the last cabinet?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. He is now a bankrupt. He was left a large estate by his uncle.

The Chairman. Since your return, in the situation of affairs have you discovered any organization, or effort at an organization, for the purpose of overturning the Provisional Government and reinstatinng the Queen?

Mr. Spalding. I have not seen any, what you might call an organization; I have only heard these same parties who have been opposed to what we call the reform party, talking about restoring the Queen----men like Wilson. But it was only when they expected to have aid and assistance from the United States in doing it. I have not heard of their having any organization of their own. I have heard they have arms secreted, but I do not think the Provisional Government have any fear of that.

The Chairman. If Liliuokalani were restored to the throne under existing conditions, do you believe she would be able to retain her seat on the throne?

Mr. Spalding. Not unless the people who are at present in power were disarmed, and the arms given to somebody else, and the people prevented getting any other arms.

The Chairman. That is not practical, is it?

Mr. Spalding. I do not think it is. There is no power to put Liliuokalani back on the throne, except a force sufficient to oust the Provisional Government and sufficient force to support the monarchy after it is in power.

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The Chairman. Do you think that would have to come from abroad?

Mr. Spalding. I think so. After this attempt the people there could not keep it up.

The Chairman. Suppose that France, the United States, England, Germany, Japan, and China should strictly adhere to the doctrine of noninterference in the present affairs of Liliuokalani or any other person—allow them to conduct political affairs in those islands—do you believe that the Kanaka sentiment, the sentiment of the native Indian, is of such a character that Liliuokalani or Kaiulana could build up a royal dynasty in Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. No, not so long as the white foreigner, white people, desire to maintain the ascendency. I think they can do it in spite of any force, internal, that may be brought against them.

The Chairman. You mean, as against the opposition of the membership of the present Government and its supporters, that it would not be practicable to reinstate a monarchy in Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. Not without a force from the outside. But there could a time come when all this would be changed. Perhaps I am a little different from many persons who live in the country; I do not regard the country simply. Of course, it is fertile in some spots, the climate is a beautiful one or favorable one, but simply on that account I do not think that there is a great future for Hawaii in sugar. Hawaii is not a sugar country, and with all our advantages—and we have given more thought to the business and developed it to a higher scientific degree than any other sugar country known—at the same time I am quite confident that with all those advantages, with capital I could go to the island of Cuba, and with my knowledge of the sugar business I could produce sugar for $10 a ton—half a cent cheaper than in Hawaii. Hence I do not regard Hawaii as a sugar country, a valuable country. We would not have arrived at the point we are now except for the benefits from the reciprocity treaty. We received great encouragement from that; received what you might term a large bonus from the United States, and the money received was put into these plantations to build them up. Consequently we are in a very favorable position to manufacture sugar. With our advanced methods and all the advantages of machinery we can make sugar fully as cheap, perhaps (in our best places, I now speak of), as any other sugar countries. But our labor is necessarily high; there is nothing to induce laborers to come there except wages, of course, and we have not enough of that population in the country to supply the wants. Consequently, when the price of sugar goes down as it is now, our plantations are valueless.

The Chairman. You mean they are not profitable?

Mr. Spalding. Not profitable—valueless as producers of revenue. Last year we received as high as 41/2 cents a pound for sugar; that was the market price; this year it is down to 27/8 cents per pound.

The Chairman. You do not consider Hawaii a natural sugar country, as being very superior to or the equal of other countries. What advantages are in that country?

Mr. Spalding. I do not think there are any advantages except the climate. I saw advantage in the reciprocity treaty, and I would not have stayed there had it not been for reciprocity; because before the reciprocity treaty had passed all the plantations had gone through bankruptcy. I do not think there was a single plantation that had not gone into bankruptcy.

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The Chairman. Do you mean through the legal course of bankruptcy?

Mr. Spalding. They had failed; they had passed into other hands; sunk their original capital.

The Chairman. You have announced that you are an annexationist?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And loyal citizen.

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. As loyal to your country as ever before?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; just as when in 1861 I stood guard at this Capitol in the cold nights of April.

The Chairman. What made you an annexationist?

Mr. Spalding. Because I believe the possession of the islands by the United States would give the United States practical possession of the Pacific Ocean.

The Chairman. The commercial control?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. How about the military control and naval control?

Mr. Spalding. The Hawaiian Islands are so located that an American fleet could be located in Pearl River harbor and with a cable from San Francisco those ships could be sent at will to any part of the ocean by the authorities at Washington.

The Chairman. You read Gen. Scofield's report on that?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Do you agree with the general's statement on that question?

Mr. Spalding. Fully.

The Chairman. He goes into the question of the width of the bar. The depth is 14 feet.

Mr. Spalding. You mean in Honolulu harbor.

The Chairman. No; the entrance to Pearl River harbor.

Mr. Spalding. The entrance to Pearl River harbor is practically closed by the coral reef outside.

Senator Frye. That is a soft coral?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. There are 13 or 14 feet of water at low tide.

Mr. Spalding. I do not know. We have never spent any money in making a survey of that harbor, and there has never been any survey made except by the crews of the warships there, at very little expense.

The Chairman. Still, light vessels can run into Pearl River harbor?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Have you any idea of its width?

Mr. Spalding. How far it extends out into the ocean?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Spalding. NO. I have been by there a great many times on a steamer. I could see about how far it runs out; but it would be more a matter of opinion.

The Chairman. Is it a mile wide?

Mr. Spalding. Less than a mile. From my observations I should say less than a mile.

The Chairman. In order for the United States to avail itself of that harbor for a naval station it would be necessary for the United States to dredge out the harbor?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. There is plenty of water?

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Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And the configuration of the harbor is such that the vessels can get protection?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; get way in behind the island. It is a sort of lagoon.

The Chairman. You could have forts there?

Mr. Spalding. Yes; right at the front entrance of the sea.

The Chairman. And they would command the Honolulu district?

Mr. Spalding. I do not know about their commanding Honolulu from Pearl River. That would be a very long reach. But Honolulu could be defended from the hill back of it.

The Chairman. The Punch Bowl?

Mr. Spalding. The Punch Bowl right behind it.

The Chairman. Honolulu Harbor is formed, as I understand it, by a bight in the land and this coral reef?

Mr. Spalding. There is not much of a bight in the land. There is this coral reef that runs all around the island, and wherever there is a stream of fresh water that prevents the coral insect from working, there is the channel. Now, in Honolulu there is a small harbor inside the reef where the stream of fresh water has been in the habit of flowing down and then running out through the coral. But this coral reef is covered with water, sometimes not more than a foot or foot and a half deep, because the tide at Honolulu is not more than 3 feet at the outside, and very seldom as much as that.

The Chairman. The entrance is through this coral?

Mr. Spalding. Right through this coral reef. This entrance to Honolulu is marked by a line of buoys and is only a few hundred feet wide.

Senator Gray. Not more than a few hundred feet?

Mr. Spalding. Not more than a few hundred.

The Chairman. The breakers define the reef

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And inside is this little bay?

Mr. Spalding. It is very small, but it is very well protected by this reef on the outside and the shallow water on the reef.

The Chairman. Protected against the Pacific Ocean?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

Mr. Spalding. Yes; a natural protection.

The Chairman. Is Pearl River harbor a full land-locked harbor?

Mr. Spalding. The only place where you can combine sea and land defenses.

The Chairman. And that is perfectly practicable?

Mr. Spalding. Perfectly practicable at Pearl River harbor; to get the passage through the reef is the only thing to do.

The Chairman. Is Pearl River surrounded by forests?

Mr. Spalding. There are a few trees in the neighborhood, but it is some little distance back in the mountains.

The Chairman. But the nation that has possession of Pearl River harbor and fortifies it has virtually the military and naval control of all those islands?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. And, to extend the inquiry, that nation would have a seat in the center of the Pacific Ocean that is valuable in a military sense and valuable in a commercial sense?

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Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. As a resting place, coaling station—place for resting ships?

Mr. Spalding. It has been a coaling station for the United States for a number of years.

The Chairman. As a place I have described, is it resorted to by vessels in numbers?

Mr. Spalding. Do you mean Pearl River harbor?

The Chairman. Honolulu?

Mr. Spalding. The Austrian war ship Donau came in there several years ago with her steering apparatus gone. She had to spend a few months there and thousands of dollars in temporary repairs. Vessels are coming all the time for the same purpose. It is the only place that I consider valuable in the North Pacific. The South Pacific is full of islands; the North Pacific has no islands practically. There are a few little spots in the North Pacific beside the Hawaiian group, but they are hardly inhabitable.

The Chairman. Then your zeal as an annexationist is built on the naval and commercial value of the islands to the United States.

Mr. Spalding. If it is not desirable for the United States to hold Pearl River, if it is not desirable for the United States to have that country as an outpost, it is not worth while for them to have anything to do with the country, because as an agricultural country, mineral country, and mercantile and manufacturing country it is of small value.

Senator Frye. How would the building of the Nicaragua canal increase the importance of those islands to the United States?

Mr. Spalding. It would make Honolulu just so much more important as a stopping place in crossing the Pacific Ocean.

Senator Frye. If the Nicaraguan canal were built, what, in your judgment, would be the result upon our country's interests to have the Hawaiian Islands go into the hands of the English Government?

Mr. Spalding. Since 1867 I have felt that it would be a very bad thing for the islands to go into the hands of Great Britain with or without the Nicaraguan canal. During the civil war we had the privateers up north among our whaling ships, and those privateers never could have gotten up there if one of our war ships had rendezvoused at Honolulu. The Hawaiian Islands are in a direct line between the British possessions of North America and the British possessions of Australia.

The Chairman. Without the annexation of Hawaii in connection with the Nicaraguan canal, but taking the conditions as they are, you think the construction of a cable to the United States between San Francisco and Honolulu would be of great importance?

Mr. Spalding. Yes. I tried to bring it about some years ago. We had a concession from the Hawaiian Government which we proposed to turn over to any company that might be formed under the auspices of the United States, but we could not get the aid of the United States in building the cable, and, of course, there was not enough business to attempt it without that.

The Chairman. What is the general character of the Portuguese who occupy Hawaii?

Mr. Spalding. The Portuguese who came there were mostly men brought out from the Madeira Islands for laboring on the plantations. So long as we paid them pretty good prices for their labor, of course, they remained. They were under agreement to remain with us for a term of years, three years I think, and at the expiration of their agreement

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a good many of them went to California, thinking that they could do better. They are not a people who are reliable as settlers; we can not depend upon their settling in the community.

The Chairman. You mean, remaining in the community?

Mr. Spalding. Remaining. They move about. If they think they can get a small addition in the way of wages they think it better for them to go. I was instrumental in erecting a Catholic church on my plantation, gave them the land and helped them put it up, because I had quite a number working for me. But I find that most of them have gone away after the expiration of their contracts.

The Chairman. As to their citizenship?

Mr. Spalding. I do not think they are very advantageous people as citizens.

The Chairman. Are they disadvantageous?

Mr. Spalding. Not if you have them in small numbers. If you have them in large numbers, yes; if you had too many of them, that would be disadvantageous.

The Chairman. Are they turbulent?

Mr. Spalding. They are apt to be quarrelsome, and not always reliable.

The Chairman. How do they got along with the native population?

Mr. Spalding. I do not think they have any trouble with the native population. They are a very saving people—in some respects a very hard working people—especially where they are working for themselves.

Senator Frye. They are pretty thrifty people?

Mr. Spalding. Pretty thrifty.

The Chairman. How about the Japanese. What kind of citizens do they become?

Mr. Spalding. We have not had them long enough to say. We do not expect citizens on the plantations to do as in the towns and cities.

The Chairman. But the Portuguese have the right as citizens to vote?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. The Japanese have not the right?

Mr. Spalding. The Japanese and Chinese. The Japanese Government have claimed that right, but we have never allowed it. I say we; I speak of the country. I was not an official.

The Chairman. The Chinese—how do they demean themselves in that country?

Mr. Spalding. Fairly well.

The Chairman. Do they intermarry with the natives?

Mr. Spalding. They do not intermarry with the natives very much.

The Chairman. Now, taking the Portuguese, the Europeans, the Americans, and the Kanakas, with their present rights of suffrage regulated by the constitution of 1887, and suppose you were to continue that and have your Government republican in form, under a written constitution, would you consider that a safe form of government for that country?

Mr. Spalding. No; I should not consider that a republican form of government, with the suffrage as we have had it since 1887 (which was very liberal), a good form of government for that country, because there is not enough to the country. The country is not valuable enough; it is of no use to divide it up into small farms, because one farmer would have to sell to another farmer. I have known but one

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industry to amount to anything specially, and that is the sugar industry— sugar and rice.

Senator Gray. How about the coffee industry?

Mr. Spalding. They have tried to raise coffee, but the coffee has been blighted. It may succeed better in the future—also tobacco. In California they can raise grain and send it down there cheaper than we can raise it; consequently we buy a good deal in California. We get better potatoes from California. They can raise them cheaper than we can. There is nothing that I know that can be raised cheaper in Hawaii than it can be raised in any other country. Consequently, even our sugar, without some kind of fostering protection, is not worth much to us. But it has been remunerative to us under the reciprocity treaty, and is remunerative to us now because of that treaty. I would not to-day attempt to start a sugar plantation on the Sandwich Islands any more than I would put my hand in the fire—I would not start a factory there.

Senator Gray. You do not think a republic would be a good form of government for the people of that country who are now entitled to suffrage?

Mr. Spalding. No.

Senator Frye. With the suffrage practically universal?

Mr. Spalding. Not as it is now; under the constitution of 1887.

Senator Gray. Would you think the outlook for a republican form of government better if the right of suffrage were more extensive?

Mr. Spalding. No; I should think that the people there, from the circumstances surrounding them, are not favorable to a republican form of government. There is not enough interest in the country for a republic—there are too many waves of prosperity and depression.

Senator Frye. Suppose there were a limit to the suffrage?

Mr. Spalding. If you were to limit the suffrage, then you might have a government which would, in my opinion be safe and advisable in the proportion that it would be limited.

Senator Frye. But that would not be a government of the people?

Mr. Spalding. It would not.

Senator Gray. The more narrow the suffrage, the more stable the government.

Mr. Spalding. Yes, because these people are like a good many in the United States—better governed than governing.

Senator Gray. They need to be governed?

Mr. Spalding. I think so.

The Chairman. What do you think of the future success of Hawaii as a government, having reference to the welfare of all classes in that country, if that government—taking the constitution of 1887 as a basis—should be placed in the hands of a native Kanaka dynasty?

Mr. Spalding. If it were placed in the hands of a native Kanaka dynasty it would probably run back to where it was when Capt. Cook visited it.

The Chairman. You think those people need to be under control?

Mr. Spalding. While the King has been on the throne the brains of the white man have carried on the government.

Senator Gray. You think they need an autocratic government?

Mr. Spalding. We have now as near an approach to autocratic government as anywhere. We have a council of fifteen, perhaps, composed of the business men of Honolulu—some of them workingmen, some capitalists, but they are all business men of Honolulu. They go

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up to the palace, which is now the official home of the cabinet—they go up there perhaps every day and hold a session of an hour to examine into the business of the country, just the same as is done in a large factory or on a farm.

Senator Gray. They control the Government?

Mr. Spalding. They control it. They assemble—"now it is desired to do so and so; what do you think about it?" They will appoint a committee, if they think it necessary, or they will appoint some one to do something, just as though the Legislature had passed a law to be carried out by the officers of the people.

The Chairman. Coming back to my proposition again. You say you do not think the restoration of the monarchy, with the native Kanaka rulers on the throne, would be a success?

Mr. Spalding. No, without some backing.

The Chairman. I am talking of an independent government.

Mr. Spalding. No.

The Chairman. It would not be to the interest of the people nor of the investors who have spent their money there?

Mr. Spalding. No.

The Chairman. You think it would be difficult, if I get your idea, either under a republican form of government, or dynastic or monarchical form, to build up in the Hawaiian Islands a government that will be equal to the commercial necessities of the Pacific Ocean?

Mr. Spalding. Most decidedly so.

The Chairman. You are of that opinion?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

The Chairman. Suppose we should come to the point of the restoration of the monarchy in Hawaii, would it be preferable that Liliuokalani should be restored under existing conditions and surroundings, or that Kaiulani should be restored?

Mr. Spalding. I do not think—it would be a choice of evils; I do not think it would make any difference. But I think it would be better to have Kaiulani, for we generally prefer the ills we know not of to those we do know.

The Chairman. Looking over this whole field and the possibility of Kaiulani being restored to her rights, as alleged, what would be the drift of the Government under her administration in respect of the influence of the United States as compared with that of Great Britain?

Mr. Spalding. If we had a sovereign on the throne?

The Chairman. Kaiulani.

Mr. Spalding. I do not think we can have any sovereign on the throne, either Kaiulani or anybody else, unless she go there for a purpose, with the consent of the business interests of the country. I think it either means that the business interests of the country shall be overlooked, thrown one side, or kept in view and something done for their benefit and protection. I think if a sovereign were put on the throne and it should become again a monarchical form of government, it would have to be under the protection of some strong power, and that strong power must be of a character that would give to these interests, especially the sugar interests (which is the main industry of the country) some compensation. It is requisite for the manufacture of sugar to have two things: a favorable soil and climate and a favorable condition of labor. If we had the same climate and the same soil here in Washington that we have in Hawaii, we could not raise sugar in Washington, because the negroes of Washington would charge

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so much for cultivating the cane that it would be cheaper to buy sugar from some other country than to make it here.

The Chairman. That relates to one interest only.

Mr. Spalding. And that is the only interest that I know of in that country.

Senator Gray. There is no other wealth-producing industry in that country?

Mr. Spalding. That is the only thing that produces money there, because it is the only thing that goes out of the country. We can not have manufactures there.

The Chairman. Your opinion would be that with Kaiulani on the throne her government would not be a success if not backed up by some other country?

Mr. Spalding. I do not think she would be of any use to the country at large. We have got to do one of two things—run the government by ourselves and support it by necessary taxation and stand the expenses of it, or have it under some foreign protection that would relieve us of those expenses.

The Chairman. Do you believe that the people representing the ruling, controlling interests in that country (which are intelligence and wealth) are the people to govern the country under a permanent form of government (whichever you may select, republican or monarchical) so as to make it a success and contribute to the happiness of the whole people?

Mr. Spalding. They are doing it now. The native people are better off now than they have been at any other time.

The Chairman. Do you believe that a Government on the existing basis, under the control of those who are now in authority, with the influence that they exert, can be established into a permanent form of government with such benefits to the people as to make it the best that can be done for that country?

Mr. Spalding. I would not like to say that I do believe that, because it depends upon whether we can support the present Government. I say I do not know about that. We are doing it for the present, but whether we can do it with sugar a half cent a pound lower than now is quite another question. And it depends upon how much money we have to pay out for our Government. But, if we have a powerful Government to back us, we get rid of a very large proportion of the expenses of the present form of government, and the expenses of the last Government, the monarchical Government. If the American flag were flying over the islands and one of the smallest and poorest warships with a crew of fifty men on board were stationed in Honolulu Harbor, you might give the suffrage to every man in the country, Chinese and Japanese, and there would not be any attempt to overthrow the Government. They might have their disputes in little affairs; but they could not overthrow the Government. But we do not know how safe we would be if we were to do away with the troops that we have. If that were done somebody else might want to have the official part of the Government to administer.

Senator Gray. Do you think that a democratic-republican government, as we understand it here in the States, could be maintained in those islands with an independent sovereignty, without the outside support of which you speak?

Mr. Spalding. We can maintain a government there so long as we can afford to keep an armed force; but not without.

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Senator Gray. Could you maintain a state government there as we understand a State government here?

Mr. Spalding. Do you mean if the islands were annexed to the United States?

Senator Gray. Yes.

Mr. Spalding. Yes, we could. That would be a republican form of government.

Mr. Gray. That is what I meant.

Mr. Spalding. I have already said that a republican form of government would not be suitable for that people. That is an independent form of government. You might, for instance, if the Hawaiian Islands were a part of the State of California do very well. I think they would send two or three or four representatives to the State capitol, who would be equally respectable with the representatives sent from the present counties in California, and I do not think there would be any trouble----all the struggle would cease. But we have there now these adventurers, an element that wants to rule or ruin. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain; and it would be simply men who have something to lose fighting men who have nothing to lose.

Senator Frye. That would require the maintenance in arms of a thousand men?

Mr. Spalding. Whatever would be necessary—a few hundred or a thousand.

Senator Frye. But the expense of keeping them is the question?

Mr. Spalding. That is all. And the question would be, where shall we get our taxes. If we had a sufficient revenue from the manufacture of sugar to pay these taxes, that might answer; we might say, "Yes, we can afford to pay for these troops to preserve good government." But if the price of sugar is to be so low, and the expenses of running the plantations so high, what would become of the country?

Senator Frye. Do you not think three hundred men under a good officer would exert complete control over those islands?

Mr. Spalding. Oh, very likely. We have not a very large force there now, and times have been probably as bad as they can be. What we want is to make something out of the country; make expenses out of the country. It is not a commercial, agricultural, manufacturing, or mineral producing country; it has no resources, no available resources; never has had. All this prosperity has come from this reciprocity treaty with the United States. Before that time we were making a matter of 15,000 or 20,000 tons of sugar a year.

Senator Gray. Are you a large sugar producer there?

Mr. Spalding. The largest personal producer. There are others, companies, producing more.

Senator Gray. Has Mr. Spreckels a factory there?

Mr. Spalding. He is interested with his friends. He has a mercantile agency and several plantations; but, of course, we send all our sugar to San Francisco.

Senator Frye. Have you ever thought over the question of annexation to California?

Mr. Spalding. Yes, a good deal.

Senator Frye. How would that do?

Mr. Spalding. I do not see any objection to it.

Senator Frye. You would elect your members of the house and senate, and perhaps one member of Congress?

Mr. Spalding. All these things would follow the change. To carry

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on our business it would be necessary to have some advantage, just as the State of Louisiana has some advantage, because she has to pay more for labor than is paid in other sugar-producing countries.

The Chairman. How are the men in this present Government?

Mr. Spalding. The four men in office there are four as good men as we have in the country.

The Chairman. You mean the advisory council?

Mr. Spalding. The advisory council is made up of as good men as are in Honolulu.

The Chairman. Who are the four men?

Mr. Spalding. The executive officers.

Senator Frye. You can not find better in any country?

Mr. Spalding. No. Dole is a man; a lawyer of ability. He was upon the supreme bench for years, and is a man of integrity and character.

The Chairman. Your supreme court, how is that?

Mr. Spalding. The chief justice is a son of Dr. Judd, who was one of the early missionaries to go out there. He belonged to what we call the lay missionaries. He was not a minister. Old Dr. Judd, as he was called, was the private adviser of King Kauikeaouli in his questions with Great Britain; and this chief justice is the son of that man.

The Chairman. Is the chief justice a man of ability?

Mr. Spalding. Of ability, and has always given good satisfaction. If anything, he has a leaning to the native population. He has always been considered, perhaps, the greatest friend, the most consistent, the best friend of the native population of any white man in the country. He has been noted for that.

The Chairman. Take the conduct of these men called missionaries and of those who were their associates in the Government, would you say that their motives, as indicated by their acts, were in favor of building up enlightenment and the establishment of all the higher virtues in the people of Hawaii, the Kanakas, or were they in the other direction?

Mr. Spalding. I should say they were more in favor of the development of the best interests of the country, and especially of the native population.

The Chairman. Is there any sentiment of hostility amongst those people toward the native population?

Mr. Spalding. Among the missionaries?

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Spalding. Quite to the contrary. They have not only been the most intelligent and most business-like men that we have had, but men of the highest integrity.

The Chairman. You have not been connected with the church in any way.

Mr. Spalding. No; I have not been considered as belonging to the missionary element, but I have always had a high respect for the work that has been done there.

The Chairman. I suppose the fact is that the missionaries have done all the work that has been done there.

Mr. Spalding. Yes. Some of the others have gathered in without scattering so much; but the missionaries have always done everything in their power to benefit the native population.

Senator Gray. You went out there in 1867 as the special agent of the State Department, under Mr. Seward?

Mr. Spalding. Yes.

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Senator Gray. Was that before the treaty of reciprocity?

Mr. Spalding. Before the treaty of reciprocity.

Senator Gray. And your instructions were verbal?

Mr. Spalding. My instructions were verbal. I went out as a bearer of dispatches, ostensibly.

Senator Gray. You say you had a general letter; of what kind?

Mr. Spalding. I had a general passport from the State Department allowing me to go anywhere over the world.

Senator Gray. Had you any special instructions to the Minister?

Mr. Spalding. I had only to carry to the Minister the key of the State Department code. That was the ostensible mission on which I was sent; but the real mission was to inform the Secretary himself, not the State Department, what the feeling of the country was and what effect this reciprocity treaty would have upon the two countries. I reported adversely to the reciprocity treaty on the ground that I thought it would perhaps impede or prevent annexation of that country in the near future. But in one of my letters from the Secretary he told me that the plan which I had suggested could not be followed by the United States at that time, as the public mind of the American people was dwelling too much upon the settlement of the matters growing out of the civil war, and they refused at that time to take up the annexation of any foreign country.

Senator Gray. Did you return in person with your report?

Mr. Spalding. I came back to Washington to settle my accounts after I gave up the consulate. I was appointed consul while I was out there; in fact, I was left with the consulate and legation both, before I was appointed consul.

Senator Gray. Then you returned and made your business arrangements?

Mr. Spalding. I came back to Washington and settled my accounts. That, I think, was in 1870. But I had already made my arrangements for starting in the sugar business, starting my plantation, and I have been in it ever since.

Adjourned until to-morrow, the 3d inst., at 10 o'clock a. m.


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